Re: Compatible USB DVB cards?

#16
Juergen wrote:
Juergen wrote:...better don't use an LNB through port of a receiver, as both devices are supposed to interfere, often even if the receiver is in standby mode...
So, does anything change, once you connect your tuner directly, instead of using the loop port?
Hello again Juergen,

No, that's what I haven't managed to get working. I can only move between satellites in ProgDVB by the method I described.

Initially I was confused by seeing channels from other satellites in the channel list, but I then understood I had the automatic transponder updating on, so any frequencies used by more than one satellite would get wrongly populated with the data from the satellite I am 'stuck' on.
The point being, it then became clear that I was failing to switch automatically between satellites.

Maybe there is one setting / combination / method I have yet to try .... ?
Have you heard of success on a Hauppauge WinTV-NOVA-S-USB2 ?

Thanks again,
Lee
UK

PS For clarity :

External DiSEqC switch

Port 1 Astra2
Port 2 Astra1
Port 3 Hotbird
Port 4 Hispasat

Single coax into my home.

I appear to be set as correctly as possible in ProgDVB for the device, DiSEqC 1.0 etc. I have tried various device 'types'.

Re: Compatible USB DVB cards?

#17
Before you told to be stuck with Astra1.
This would be the second port, according to details given now.
If correct, this is a bit strange, as a DiSEqC switch must default to it's first port after power down.
So the position set must have come from the looped receiver, or the DiSEqC switch is corrupt some way. Once had a switch here with it's label placed to the wrong side, by this mixing up port numbers...

If only the receiver can switch DiSEqC, but ProgDVB won't do, if connected directly, there are three main possible reasons:
- bad device setting for DiSEqC on BDA
- bad hardware (DiSEqC switch with low DiSEqC carrier sensitivity or tuner with low DiSEqC signal level)
- overloaded 22kHz driver stage on tuner, caused for example by a non disconnecting DiSEqC switch and / or to low impedance for 22kHz on at least one LNB

22kHz band switching uses the same carrier as DiSEqC, but detection stages may of course behave slightly different, as being build into different devices. And band switching uses a continuous tone, that is more robust than the digital signals for position control.
Often receivers have stronger driver stages for LNB power and 22kHz / DiSEqC. That's why those may still succeed where computer tuners tent to fail.

All this was the main reason for me, to use three Quattro LNBs on a 5/x powered multiswitch each, then outputs managed by DiSEqC switch. Low load to the tuner circuitry (below 30 mA), as it won't have to keep the LNB(s) powered up.
By my Nexus' hardware design, and similar to most other tuners I've looked into yet, DC supply load current also places a load to the 22kHz insertion stages, decreasing it's output level.

From dish to switches, my cables are around 15 m (~ 50 ft) each, then down to the tuners, there are around 17 m more. No switching trouble of any kind.
My fourth LNB (for 30°W) is a cheap Single Universal type, connected directly to the DiSEqC 1.0 switch port 4, without a Multiswitch. It eats around 125 mA and also won't give any trouble.

However, perhaps a different DiSEqC switch could solve your problems, but in any case without that loop. The loop through would always reduce a control signal, that is already supposed to be a bit weak...
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19.2°,13°,28.x°E,30°W, DiSEqC 1.0


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Re: Compatible USB DVB cards?

#18
Thanks for that, Juergen.
I'll read that over carefully.

Yes the port I get stuck on isn't always port1. Indeed something seems to be not releasing or taking control properly. (even when loopthrough is not in place)

I'm new to DVB-S, but is it fair to say that a PCI tuner card is more robust and powerful than a USB one? Did I choose the easy and inferior option?

Also, on a simple level, can I simply try inserting some kind of booster / amplifier in the chain somewhere within my home? The signal levels reported by different software vary, but the signals might be weak enough to cause problems.

Would boosting the signal also improve the DiSEqC connection?
Or is 'electrical power' nothing to do with the 'strength' of the signal? I'm not an electrician unfortunately. :)

Of course, it would be nice to actually hear from somebody who has this unit working with ProgDVB.

Thanks again,
Lee

Re: Compatible USB DVB cards?

#19
leecovuk wrote:... (even when loopthrough is not in place)
Let's stay with this only, as else there are to many side effects.
BTW, definitely no hot plugging...

leecovuk wrote:is it fair to say that a PCI tuner card is more robust and powerful than a USB one? Did I choose the easy and inferior option?
Only partly.
All PCI tuners must have a DC/DC converter, as from the bus we don't get anything like 13 or 18 Volts to feed the LNB, nor the tuning voltage required internally.
For example, the SkyStar 1 Premium / Nexus tuners like mine quite often have a known weakness in that voltage converter stage, due to ageing of a chemical capacitor.
In such a case, only very low DC current is available to feed the LNB. And 22kHz insertion stage was changed between hardware revisions, due to an originally quite low level of that signal, specially on long cable runs or with some older LNBs, that put excessive capacitive load to the port..
leecovuk wrote:Also, on a simple level, can I simply try inserting some kind of booster / amplifier in the chain somewhere within my home? The signal levels reported by different software vary, but the signals might be weak enough to cause problems.Would boosting the signal also improve the DiSEqC connection?
Or is 'electrical power' nothing to do with the 'strength' of the signal? I'm not an electrician unfortunately. :)
Normally this won't help, as such devices put an extra load to both DC supply and 22kHz insertion stages. Anyway, the RF signal from modern LNBs is amplified very much (~ 55 to 60 dB), so the level on the LNB cable should not be an issue.
All inline amps are only amplifying the RF signal, from the LNB down to the tuner, but not the control signals or DC on the way up.
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PM ME FOR THIS AND YOUR ACCOUNT WILL BE DELETED IMMEDIATELY, WITHOUT ANY WARNING!!!

NEVER EVER DARE TO CONTACT ME FOR PRO VERSION ISSUES!
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Check the 'Activation' section.

Please keep it in English here, or Russian in the Russian section, or German in the German section.

I don't read nor write Klingonian or any other language than English and German.
Addressing me personally in any exotic language will be treated as severe insulting! Be warned!!!


1.)AMD Phenom II x4 940, GA-MA770-UD3, 8 GB DDR2-6400. 7 Pro SP1 x64 + XP Pro SP3 x86
DVB-S2: Cynergy S2 USB HD
2.)P4 3200 i865G (F-S Scenic W600pwr) XP Pro SP3
DVB-S: hauppauge WinTV Nexus-S rev. 2.2, driver TT 2.19h, hardware mode

19.2°,13°,28.x°E,30°W, DiSEqC 1.0


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Re: Compatible USB DVB cards?

#20
Thanks again Juergen,
Your advice is much appreciated.

I have indeed learned that any loopthrough potentially screws up any chance of getting it working! (Hopefully I won't have to use my method which relies on loopthrough and my other receiver)

What do you mean by 'hotplugging' ? I assume you mean don't plug or unplug any part of the coax or power chain whilst any of the possible tuners are in circuit and switched on.

Also, my USB card has a supplied power unit which plugs into it and the mains power. I have no idea if that can possibly be faulty or insufficient? I don't know what exactly its purpose is.
However if it all works with the supplied WinTV software then I imagine I have no right to complain.

A final check on the 'BDA driver' issue .... do I have to do anything specific to make sure the best driver is loaded into my card for compatibility? I really have no idea how to recognise a BDA driver over any other. All I have been doing is uninstalling everything then installing the latest driver package from the Hauppauge site and/or 'checking for new drivers' using the Microsoft tool in Device Manager. Predictably, when it 'looks' locally or on the internet, 'the best driver is already installed'.

Thanks once again,
Lee

Re: Compatible USB DVB cards?

#21
Hotplugging in this case means, working on LNB cables in any other situation than both disconnected from mains power line, computer and tuner power supply.
Also make sure, to always first contact the outer shield of the LNB cable(s) to the case potential (like the outside of the F jack), before inserting the normal way, as F style connectors like to connect the inner core first.
Dishes like to take up static high voltages caused by air stream, if not grounded properly. Same goes for long LNB cables, specially the outside part. Discharging this voltage to the inner connector may damage the tuner immediately. With mains plug inserted, this is even more critical.

Regarding power available, by definition USB can provide a maximum of 2.5 Watts (5 volts x 500 mA). This is not even enough, to provide the LNB power (13 or 18 Volts at a maximum like 400 mA). Leaves nothing for the tuner to live from. This is why USB satellite tuners always need an extra power supply, to feed the LNB.
BTW, what output voltage does the PSU of your tuner have? Is it 18 Volts DC or above?
Else there would have to be a tiny DC/DC converter inside of the USB device itself...
Now there's another limitation, due to device size. Miniature electronics must have small components, thin copper lines, no cooling aid, so they are not really strong, regarding electrical power used or passed through. A receiver has much more space inside. Even the tuner pack inside may be much bigger than the whole USB device.

PCI devices are somewhere in between. A strong PSU available outside, but the necessary voltages would have to be created on board.
Depending on the board size (and price), it's possible, to use full size receiver tuner packs, and in my case of expensive legacy tech even a great hardware decoder...
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Please read here:
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I don't give support by e-mail or PM.

And I will never assist on PayTV hacking.
PM ME FOR THIS AND YOUR ACCOUNT WILL BE DELETED IMMEDIATELY, WITHOUT ANY WARNING!!!

NEVER EVER DARE TO CONTACT ME FOR PRO VERSION ISSUES!
I am not responsible for that.
Check the 'Activation' section.

Please keep it in English here, or Russian in the Russian section, or German in the German section.

I don't read nor write Klingonian or any other language than English and German.
Addressing me personally in any exotic language will be treated as severe insulting! Be warned!!!


1.)AMD Phenom II x4 940, GA-MA770-UD3, 8 GB DDR2-6400. 7 Pro SP1 x64 + XP Pro SP3 x86
DVB-S2: Cynergy S2 USB HD
2.)P4 3200 i865G (F-S Scenic W600pwr) XP Pro SP3
DVB-S: hauppauge WinTV Nexus-S rev. 2.2, driver TT 2.19h, hardware mode

19.2°,13°,28.x°E,30°W, DiSEqC 1.0


Auf Deutsch:
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Re: Compatible USB DVB cards?

#22
Thanks again Juergen. You clearly know your stuff!

The power supply supplied is officially stated on the site as :
"Wall plug power supply (7.5V, 1.5A)."
and what I actually have seems to match that on the label :

POWER SUPPLY
MODEL: CGS-0751500
INPUT: 100-240V AC
50/60 Hz
OUTPUT: 7.5V DC 1.5A

I've seen some comments on the Hauppauge site, apparently relevant to my card, that some power units have been acknowledged as insufficient or faulty. It seems inability to drive Diseqc may be a symptom.

A replacement can be requested, however if the current supply works with the WinTV software then I imagine there are no grounds for requesting a replacement. I could lie but a quick search for 'leecovuk' on the net would reveal all !

Something I've asked on the Hauppauge site, but not heard a reply on, is whether I can safely try using any other PSU that I may already have.
Can I do that? What supply might be more powerful without blowing anything up?
Or is this a false train of logic?
Obviously I will accept full responsibilty if anything is damaged.

Lee

Re: Compatible USB DVB cards?

#23
Depending on it's weight, you may find out, if the original PSU is a modern switch mode (weight less than half a pound) or old style transformer based (heavy, a big pack of iron and copper inside, a pound or more, getting noticeably warm).

Don't ever use an old style transformer based one for an original switch mode PSU!
Transformers produce a relatively high voltage with no load attached, like above 9 Volts running free.
May be lethal for the tuner...

The other way around instead would be fine, as long as it's exactly 7.5 Volts.
The load capacity should be 1.5 A or more then.

However, best to do would surely be, have the PSU replaced by the vendor or manufacturer right now...
Certified and experienced TV mechanic writing this...
My signature:

Please read here:
On Bug Reports And Other Complaints
and there:
BOARD RULES - READ THIS!



I don't give support by e-mail or PM.

And I will never assist on PayTV hacking.
PM ME FOR THIS AND YOUR ACCOUNT WILL BE DELETED IMMEDIATELY, WITHOUT ANY WARNING!!!

NEVER EVER DARE TO CONTACT ME FOR PRO VERSION ISSUES!
I am not responsible for that.
Check the 'Activation' section.

Please keep it in English here, or Russian in the Russian section, or German in the German section.

I don't read nor write Klingonian or any other language than English and German.
Addressing me personally in any exotic language will be treated as severe insulting! Be warned!!!


1.)AMD Phenom II x4 940, GA-MA770-UD3, 8 GB DDR2-6400. 7 Pro SP1 x64 + XP Pro SP3 x86
DVB-S2: Cynergy S2 USB HD
2.)P4 3200 i865G (F-S Scenic W600pwr) XP Pro SP3
DVB-S: hauppauge WinTV Nexus-S rev. 2.2, driver TT 2.19h, hardware mode

19.2°,13°,28.x°E,30°W, DiSEqC 1.0


Auf Deutsch:
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Re: Compatible USB DVB cards?

#24
Thanks Juergen,

The power pack is quite small and light.

Well, I've now tried ProgDVB, Media Portal and (bought) DVBViewer. None of them properly drive my DiSEqC.
WinTV however continues to work fine.

I can only assume this device doesn't have the mystical 'BDA compatibility'.
I'm waiting for the Hauppauge support people to confirm that one way or another. However I'm currently assuming it is definitely not BDA compatible. If I find differently and have success, I'll post back in case somebody else finds it useful.

I guess I'm stuck with WinTV .... oh well. If I dare to buy a tuner device again I will check the compatibility more carefully.

Lee

Re: Compatible USB DVB cards?

#25
You may be absolutely correct...

Having noticed the hardware settings in (BDA) Device Settings, you can easily conclude, several devices require some extra tricks, to enable DiSEqC on BDA.
Reason was, M$ originally created BDA for terrestrial tuners.
Satellite tuner manufacturers had to find ways, to bypass BDA limitations, to allow DiSEqC controls, for their original software.
Even if that occasionally was a modified ProgDVB version, like with a proprietary device file, an extra installer or similar...
Most such solutions used were not well documented, if ever, but for some 3rd party software developers found out, how to do this with their software and in case without official support. One reason for not supporting 3rd party software might have been an NDA, another one licenses for codecs used.
So, for some tuners, compatibility may still be an issue.

This does not mean, no chance for future improvement, but better don't hold your breath...
My signature:

Please read here:
On Bug Reports And Other Complaints
and there:
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I don't give support by e-mail or PM.

And I will never assist on PayTV hacking.
PM ME FOR THIS AND YOUR ACCOUNT WILL BE DELETED IMMEDIATELY, WITHOUT ANY WARNING!!!

NEVER EVER DARE TO CONTACT ME FOR PRO VERSION ISSUES!
I am not responsible for that.
Check the 'Activation' section.

Please keep it in English here, or Russian in the Russian section, or German in the German section.

I don't read nor write Klingonian or any other language than English and German.
Addressing me personally in any exotic language will be treated as severe insulting! Be warned!!!


1.)AMD Phenom II x4 940, GA-MA770-UD3, 8 GB DDR2-6400. 7 Pro SP1 x64 + XP Pro SP3 x86
DVB-S2: Cynergy S2 USB HD
2.)P4 3200 i865G (F-S Scenic W600pwr) XP Pro SP3
DVB-S: hauppauge WinTV Nexus-S rev. 2.2, driver TT 2.19h, hardware mode

19.2°,13°,28.x°E,30°W, DiSEqC 1.0


Auf Deutsch:
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Re: Compatible USB DVB cards?

#26
Thanks Juergen.

I've just come back to ask ...

Is there any clear evidence or firm knowledge that any of the following USB cards work properly with ProgDVB on Windows Vista Home Premium 32 bit?
I could obviously search and take a guess, but I want to be sure if I decide to buy another card.

Compro VideoMate S500
Technisat SkyStar USB 2
Technisat SkyStar USB 2 HD CI

Thanks,
Lee